catholic answers 4 dummies binding and loosing working4christ taze me bro

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#1    19th June 2013, 07:42 PM

donttazemebro  Newbie      Join Date: 19th June 2013 Posts: 8 Blessings: 2,135 Reps: 10 (power: 0)

Is the Catholic Church infallible? First of all i know Catholics point out some bible "verses" for infallibility like that binding or loosing,... But i have some questions (because i want to know the truth). First did He gave that right (to bind and loose, to forgive sins or retain them,...) to only the Apostoles or to theirs successors too? If yes successors too, then where are any successors of the Apostoles mentioned in the Bible and where in the Bible does He gives them that authority? Second in 1 Peter 2:5–9 it says that we (believers) are all holy priesthood (correct me if im wrong) so if we are all holy priesthood and the Church i think consists of priests, does that mean that we are all, not only the present priest that became priests but all believers cannot make a mistake about faith because He is with us. So did he actually gave that infallibility to us, the holy priesthood (believers) who are the Church and not only to the ones who are the leaders of the Church(pope) or the ones we usually call priests? Am i assuming correct here? Also if the Church would be infallible and they did a right thing in the times of crusades, Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica,injustices to women,,...why did then pope John Paul II apologize for these things? Did he admitted that the Church did a wrong decision which would of been impossible if the Church is infallible?

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#2    19th June 2013, 10:34 PM

PaladinValer  Orthodox Catholic in the English Style 32         Join Date: 7th April 2004 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 18,026 Blessings: 26,632,531 My Mood  Reps: 719,517,456,817,241,600 (power: 719,517,456,817,269)

Originally Posted by donttazemebro  First of all i know Catholics point out some bible "verses" for infallibility like that binding or loosing, Those have nothing to do with infallibility even by the Vatican Catholic Church. They have to do with the Sacrament of Holy Reconciliation. ... But i have some questions (because i want to know the truth). First did He gave that right (to bind and loose, to forgive sins or retain them,...) to only the Apostoles or to theirs successors too? Do you see Vatican Catholic priests and bishops pronouncing God's forgiveness of confessors' sins? Then obviously, it extends to their successors. If yes successors too, then where are any successors of the Apostoles mentioned in the Bible and where in the Bible does He gives them that authority? 1. Few are mentioned because their successors are their disciples; their students. 2. Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance. Non-mention doesn't mean forbidden; it means not mentioned. Second in 1 Peter 2:5–9 it says that we (believers) are all holy priesthood (correct me if im wrong) You are wrong, and it is a common mistake by many Protestants because of a lack of reading the actual Greek writing used. The Greek uses hiereus here, not presbuteros. Hiereus is the Greek for an Old Testament priest and is where we get the English word "hierarch" from. We are all Old Testament priests because of Christ Jesus who is the Great High Priest (truly, Hierarch, but He is also referred to as the Bishop of Souls too, so the NT calls Him the highest clerical titles according to OT and NT theology). However, presbuteros is used in the NT for priests and bishops and is always associated with Christian clergy. It is where we actually get the word "priest" in English from. so if we are all holy priesthood and the Church i think consists of priests, does that mean that we are all, not only the present priest that became priests but all believers cannot make a mistake about faith because He is with us. This is stemming from two chief errors. I've corrected one above. The second error is the fact that you are arguing a false premise; that the Vatican Catholic Church teaches total infallibility at the clerical state. Many Protestants sadly believe this,but it is false. The Vatican Catholic Church teaches infallibility only in terms of dogma and the "Deposit of Faith" (the Holy Scriptures). Dogma can be reached upon by Ecumenical Council or when the Pope speaks ex cathedra ONLY. There isabsolutely no belief that their church teaches all its clergy are infallible or even the Pope in general. So did he actually gave that infallibility to us, the holy priesthood (believers) who are the Church and not only to the ones who are the leaders of the Church(pope) or the ones we usually call priests? Am i assuming correct here? No, you are not assuming correct. Also if the Church would be infallible and they did a right thing in the times of crusades, Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica,injustices to women,,...why did then pope John Paul II apologize for these things? Did he admitted that the Church did a wrong decision which would of been impossible if the Church is infallible? Again, this is a mischaracterization of actual Vatican Catholic teaching and theology. None of these were dogmatic. None of them were the result of Ecumenical Council or Popes speaking ex cathedra. They were the result of fallible people. I think before you make assumptions you should take the time to learn first. I suggest a visit to OBOB (the Vatican Catholic subforum here on CF). __________________ Member of the Round Table To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. For You are the Lord Most High, of great compassion, long-suffering, and very merciful, and You relent at human suffering. O Lord, according to Your great goodness You have promised repentance and forgiveness to those who have sinned against You, and in the multitude of Your mercies You have appointed repentance for sinners so that they may be saved. -Prayer of Manasseh verse 7 (NRSV) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

#3    20th June 2013, 02:45 AM

Kurama  ℒ'amour vaincra tout 16        Join Date: 25th March 2013 Location: Beijing Posts: 1,249 Blessings: 203,079,459 My Mood  Blog Entries: 1 Reps: 1,383,219,423,641,431,040 (power: 1,383,219,423,641,433)

As one who generally defends the Church, I can attest that the Catholic Church is not infallible. All churches and denominations are not infallible, for they are ran by sinful human beings: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God -Roman 3:23. The Catholic Church is just as infallible as the divided 3500 Protestant denominations (that can't seem to create more of a united front). The Catholic Church is far, far from ideal...there are many other denominations that I have a lot more respect for in their doctrine (notably the Quakers for their platform of love and pacifism). Politics and East-West rivalries created schisms. and the Church broke apart (the Church was also very corrupt, actually forcing people to pay a ''Heaven Tax''...horrible). Lol some Popes were even ''martyred'' by the husbands of the women they cheated with (poor Pope John XII...talk about adultery). The early Protestants wanted to create a better version of the Catholic Church (the Lutheran and Anglican Churches, which has quite a lot of Catholic traditions), but they ended splitting up and multiplying. Also it is quite apparent that the Lutheran Church was pretty horrible, Martin Luther was a total anti-Semite who exterminated many Jews in Germany (a 16th century Hitler). As for the Anglicans...what they did to the Catholic population in the British Isles is horrid, makes me have a little sympathy for Guy Fawkes. If the Catholic Church was truly infallible, why did we have corrupt Popes? Why did we have all the wars caused by the Church? Though in our defence, the Pope has fully apologised and the Church is the largest non-government aid provider in the world...we are repenting for our past sins. However my issue is that I believe in a universal church...one body, one faith...Europe and Asia Minor used to be Catholic, they used to belong to one body. We Catholics believe in the unity and friendship of all Christians, no more sectarian division. I know that we may have different views, but the fundamental principles of seeing Christ as our Lord and His Sacrifice is the same with Catholics as it is to (most) non-Catholic Christians. I want there to be unity...I want everyone to be part of the same Church, the same Body, just like Christ had ordered us. He did not want division and sectarianism, He wanted us to worship Him in community by way of the Holy Spirit. Thus I don't really mind about the Church making compromises and concessions, as long as we can become more integrated. This is what the Church has been doing these past few decades, leaving the path of elitism and finding common ground between other Christians (as well as Muslims and Jews, John Paul II actually kissed the Quran...no Protestant would ever dream of doing that). Catholic means universal by the way...we are the universal Christians, we want everyone to worship the Lord in One Body, as He commanded us to. __________________ It does not matter who you are, your religion, your background... I still love you To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

#4    20th June 2013, 03:20 PM

CMatt25  Newbie       Join Date: 15th February 2013 Posts: 94 Blessings: 25,357 My Mood  Reps: 1,508,953,799,288,253 (power: 1,508,953,799,289)

Originally Posted by donttazemebro  First of all i know Catholics point out some bible "verses" for infallibility like that binding or loosing,... But i have some questions (because i want to know the truth). First did He gave that right (to bind and loose, to forgive sins or retain them,...) to only the Apostoles or to theirs successors too? If yes successors too, then where are any successors of the Apostoles mentioned in the Bible and where in the Bible does He gives them that authority? Second in 1 Peter 2:5–9 it says that we (believers) are all holy priesthood (correct me if im wrong) so if we are all holy priesthood and the Church i think consists of priests, does that mean that we are all, not only the present priest that became priests but all believers cannot make a mistake about faith because He is with us. So did he actually gave that infallibility to us, the holy priesthood (believers) who are the Church and not only to the ones who are the leaders of the Church(pope) or the ones we usually call priests? Am i assuming correct here? Also if the Church would be infallible and they did a right thing in the times of crusades, Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica,injustices to women,,...why did then pope John Paul II apologize for these things? Did he admitted that the Church did a wrong decision which would of been impossible if the Church is infallible? I'm a baptized and confirmed Roman Catholic though not a practicing one. But didn't the apostles gather to choose a successor to Judas as one of their early acts? I will grant those involved in the selection process appears to have included more than just men who were among the original 12 apostles. Since in Acts 1:14 we are told it included others including women. And in verse 15 we are told the believers numbered about 120. So it may not have been done as is done in the Catholic Church today. But the apostles gathered along with the others and in Acts 1:24 they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry". And in regard to the injustices, it's the same as the answer they give in regard to any scandal within the Catholic Church. I heard it over and over again in light of the sex and child abuse scandals: The infallibility they believe in has to do with teachings of faith and morals. But Catholic priests and bishops are not immune from sin and like any human, can fail to live up to their teachings. Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending injustices. I too have difficulty with some of the fruits by which to know them who preach the sanctity of life and I would hope knew better. But if you want the faithful Catholic perspective, I think may have to look at injustices more along these lines. It's more along the lines of do as I say. Not necessarily as I do.

#5    20th June 2013, 08:58 PM

CAJ  Newbie       Join Date: 17th May 2013 Location: In my Comfy Bed. Posts: 121 Blessings: 13,763 Reps: 5,975,004,987,239,951 (power: 5,975,004,987,240)

Originally Posted by donttazemebro  First of all i know Catholics point out some bible "verses" for infallibility like that binding or loosing,... But i have some questions (because i want to know the truth). First did He gave that right (to bind and loose, to forgive sins or retain them,...) to only the Apostoles or to theirs successors too? If yes successors too, then where are any successors of the Apostoles mentioned in the Bible and where in the Bible does He gives them that authority? Second in 1 Peter 2:5–9 it says that we (believers) are all holy priesthood (correct me if im wrong) so if we are all holy priesthood and the Church i think consists of priests, does that mean that we are all, not only the present priest that became priests but all believers cannot make a mistake about faith because He is with us. So did he actually gave that infallibility to us, the holy priesthood (believers) who are the Church and not only to the ones who are the leaders of the Church(pope) or the ones we usually call priests? Am i assuming correct here? Also if the Church would be infallible and they did a right thing in the times of crusades, Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica,injustices to women,,...why did then pope John Paul II apologize for these things? Did he admitted that the Church did a wrong decision which would of been impossible if the Church is infallible? No. By the way this is not the forum for Roman Catholics (those that Paladin Vader refers to as "Vatican Catholics". That would be OBOB (One Bread One Body) I'm guessing that is where you meant to direct this question.

#6    23rd June 2013, 06:06 PM

blujon  Newbie      Join Date: 30th December 2008 Posts: 12 Blessings: 82,097 My Mood  Reps: 22,543,918,678,048 (power: 22,543,918,683)

Originally Posted by donttazemebro  First of all i know Catholics point out some bible "verses" for infallibility like that binding or loosing,... But i have some questions (because i want to know the truth). First did He gave that right (to bind and loose, to forgive sins or retain them,...) to only the Apostoles or to theirs successors too? If yes successors too, then where are any successors of the Apostoles mentioned in the Bible and where in the Bible does He gives them that authority? Second in 1 Peter 2:5–9 it says that we (believers) are all holy priesthood (correct me if im wrong) so if we are all holy priesthood and the Church i think consists of priests, does that mean that we are all, not only the present priest that became priests but all believers cannot make a mistake about faith because He is with us. So did he actually gave that infallibility to us, the holy priesthood (believers) who are the Church and not only to the ones who are the leaders of the Church(pope) or the ones we usually call priests? Am i assuming correct here? Also if the Church would be infallible and they did a right thing in the times of crusades, Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica,injustices to women,,...why did then pope John Paul II apologize for these things? Did he admitted that the Church did a wrong decision which would of been impossible if the Church is infallible? About Mt 16:19 binding and loosing. If you can get hold of some greek text on the verse, You will notice it say, That what you bind on earth having already been bound in heaven, and having loosed on earth having already been bound in heaven. The way it should be read is that God has already taken the action of binding and loosing So, in other words the churches cannot loose anything on earth that has been bound in heaven.

#7    25th June 2013, 08:00 AM

Esdra  Senior Veteran 27        Join Date: 18th September 2011 Location: the Tyrol Posts: 3,444 Blessings: 1,003,327 Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,780)

Originally Posted by CAJ  No. By the way this is not the forum for Roman Catholics (those that Paladin Vader refers to as "Vatican Catholics". That would be OBOB (One Bread One Body) I'm guessing that is where you meant to direct this question. He put this question in all Apostolic Succession Churches. Also in the section "Apostolic Succession Churches", and at OBOB and at Charismatic Catholics. Either he's a troll, or he thinks that everything that is catholic (with a small c) is the Roman Catholic Church. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. A Prayer to St. Benedict: Father Benedict, help me to live and die as a faithful child of God, to run in the sweetness of His loving will, and to attain the eternal happiness of heaven. Amen.

#8    25th June 2013, 10:59 AM

Albion  Legend        Join Date: 8th December 2004 Posts: 36,241 Blessings: 70,639,872 Reps: 4,726,147,303,677,970,432 (power: 4,726,147,303,678,015)

Originally Posted by Kurama  The early Protestants wanted to create a better version of the Catholic Church (the Lutheran and Anglican Churches, which has quite a lot of Catholic traditions), but they ended splitting up and multiplying. Also it is quite apparent that the Lutheran Church was pretty horrible, Martin Luther was a total anti-Semite who exterminated many Jews in Germany (a 16th century Hitler). Beg pardon!? You really should learn at least the rudiments of history before popping off with nonsense like that.

#9    25th June 2013, 01:11 PM

Sean611  Catholic Anglican           Join Date: 24th February 2012 Location: United States Posts: 292 Blessings: 2,006,477 My Mood  Reps: 39,563,651,016,000,952 (power: 39,563,651,016,002)

Originally Posted by Albion  Beg pardon!? You really should learn at least the rudiments of history before popping off with nonsense like that. Indeed, it always amazes me that some Roman Catholics seem utterly oblivious to the history of persecution conducted by their own church throughout its history. Also, it should be said that all churches are not perfect and have checkered pasts, but some Catholics just refuse to accept their church has a less than perfect past. __________________ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost--Matthew 28:19 (KJV)

#10    25th June 2013, 01:26 PM

Albion  Legend        Join Date: 8th December 2004 Posts: 36,241 Blessings: 70,639,872 Reps: 4,726,147,303,677,970,432 (power: 4,726,147,303,678,015)

Originally Posted by Sean611  Indeed, it always amazes me that some Roman Catholics seem utterly oblivious to the history of persecution conducted by their own church throughout its history. Also, it should be said that all churches are not perfect and have checkered pasts, but some Catholics just refuse to accept their church has a less than perfect past. That's true, but I wasn't concerned about a balanced approach. The boldfaced claim that Luther "exterminated many Jews" like Hitler is jaw-dropping, to say the least!